Interview by Pao Ching-ming, et al.
24 November 2021
Jump to interview-proper.
I did this interview with Prof. Joma when I was only 14 years old, some three months after I started properly calling myself a "socialist" and after having joined my first national-democratic organisation. But I wouldn't—couldn't, really—join in a mass action until early 2023. Most of my questions here are thus what one would expect from a terminally on-line, sheltered, and autistic teenager whose political practice was confined to skimming PDFs and arguing on Twitter and Discord.
For the longest time, I refused to reread the interview out of embarrassment at how pretentiously I worded things and how clear the insecurity of my youth was in every overly-protracted sentence and awkward archaism. Now, returning to this two years later, I find myself smiling rather than cringing at the sincere curiosity of my questions beneath all the pompous and grandstanding language, which itself was intended to emulate the Professor's manner of writing. (Soon after, I moved on to imitating even more archaic styles, a trace of which is present here in the form of "&c.," et cetera.) That same spirit of earnest and lighthearted inquistiveness is evident also in the final few questions, which asked things like what the Professor's favourite foods were, what frustrated hobbies he had, &c., &c. I recall being criticised by some people for my "childishness" there, but I maintain that such questions were and are important in humanising the Professor and bringing him down to the level of the masses whose liberation was the sole object of his life and struggle.
This interview holds a special place in my heart as the starting point of my (hyper-)fixation on and friendship with Prof. Joma. The former is still ongoing, whereas the latter ended (physically, at least) with his death a year and a month after this first conversation of ours. Months before he passed, he had proposed to me a book-length series of interviews on his life "certainly more complete and up-to-date and probably more thoroughgoing than [his] previous biographies co-written with Rainer Werning in 1988 and Ninotchka Rosca in 2001." His last message to me, on September or October, was simply him asking me to continue the project until he could return to it in "three months"—he of course never did. I am glad to be republishing this interview, and hope to do more in the future to keep his memory alive and to combat the attempts made to distort and slander that memory by those afraid of his fighting spirit even in death.
Finally, I should like to acknowledge the help I had in preparing for and doing this interview from my best friend Teya, Azriel, and Shrek. The original editing was done by comrade Julie de Lima, Prof. Joma's wife, and initial communication between me and the Professor was set up by the Philippine Revolution Web Central (PRWC). My wholehearted thanks are due to all of them, without whom this interview would not have happened. The version below is taken from Imperialism in Turmoil, Socialism in Prospect, a collection of the Professor's works from 2021 published by the International Network for Philippine Studies. There it is titled "On Various Current Issues." Small changes in spelling and punctuation have been made for readability's sake.
Pao Ching-ming
25 November, 2023
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1. In your recent interview with Messrs. Henry Hakamaki, Adnan Husain, and Breht O’Shea of the Guerrilla History broadcast, or podcast, you talked in great length about your experience as a life-long revolutionary in the Pilipíno national democratic movement. I, along with many of my other comrades and friends, thoroughly enjoyed that interview, but your time as a young activist in the University of the Philippines was not really discussed in detail. May you please elucidate us on your background as a young revolutionary as well as your involvement in progressive and nationalist formations such as the Movement for the Advancement of Nationalism, of which you were the general-secretary?
JMS: It was in the University of the Philippines where in 1956 to 1958 I learned systematically anticolonial, anti- imperialist and liberal democratic ideas from the writings of Teodoro Agoncillo, Cesar Adib Majul, Renato Constantino and Claro Mayo Recto. From being a progressive liberal, I made a leap in 1958 to 1959 to being a Marxist-Leninist after I read some of the major works of Marx, Engels. Lenin, Stalin and Mao hidden in the basement of the UP Main Library and in private collections. These had been hidden by the librarians to evade the orders of the military to destroy "subversive reading materials" in the late 1940s and early 1950s.
I began to write articles against the ruling system dominated by US imperialism and the local exploiting classes in 1958. And I formed the Student Cultural Association of the UP in 1959 to defend academic freedom and oppose the anticommunist witchhunt unleashed by the Lower House Committee on Anti-Filipino Activities, the National Intelligence Coordinating Agency and UP Student Catholic Action which were invoking the Anti-Subversion Law of 1957. The SCAUP created open discussion groups to study the people’s democratic revolution as well as discrete groups to study the theory and practice of Marxism-Leninism.
After our success with study groups in the UP and in mobilizing 5000 students to scuttle the CAFA anticommunist hearings on March 15, 1961, we in the SCAUP encouraged student leaders in the Manila downtown universities to form organizations similar to the SCAUP. We joined the Lapíang Manggagawà (Workers’ Party) and took charge of research and education. We subsequently cooperated with the Malayàng Samahán ng mga Mágsasaká (Masaka) in deploying social investigation and integration teams of the youth in the countryside. By November 30, 1964, we were ready to form the Kabataang Makabayan as a comprehensive youth organization.
As chairman of Kabataang Makabayan and general secretary and then vice chairman of the Socialist Party of the Philippines (formerly the Lapíang Manggagawà), I was in a position to play a key role in the preparation and founding of the Movement for the Advancement of Nationalism in 1966. This was basically an anti-imperialist and democratic united front organization. Senator Lorenzo M. Tañada was the Chairman and I was the General Secretary until 1968.
2. As a prolific poet and musician who has authored innumerable poems such as "The Guerrilla is like a Poet," "Which Shall Come Ahead?," "The Long Struggle for Freedom," "Fragments of a Nightmare," and so on, and sung and translated a great many songs into Pilipíno, what do you think is the role of art in the revolutionary struggle?
JMS: Art has an important and decisive role to play in the revolutionary struggle. Without art and culture, the revolutionary movement would be dull-witted and boring and would become less effective in inspiring and moving the people to rise up against the enemy. It is necessary to reflect the conditions, needs and demands of the people in the theory and works of art and thereby arouse the people to fight, get organized and become mobilized in larger numbers in order to win revolutionary victories. The people’s democratic revolution and subsequent socialist revolution involve revolutionary processes in the mode of production (economic base) and superstructure (politics and culture).
3. What do you think of the struggle of Pilipíno queers—baklâ, tómboy, &c.—and their role in the Revolution?
JMS: All people of whatever gender and sexual orientation (including the LGBTQI) have a role to play in the Revolution in accordance with their training and competence in ideological, political and organizational work. There should be no discrimination against them. They have equal rights and duties like all others in the revolution. And like others, they may be rated according to competence and performance.
4. Religion and spirituality are key parts in the lives of easily a hundred million Pilipínos, with the Catholic Church and other such institutions amassing tremendous influence over the toiling masses. Historically, the Church has served a reactionary and treacherous role of indoctrinating the people into blind worship and ultimate submission to the foreign devils and conquistadors. But there is also a rich tradition of progressivism and anti-imperialism from organisations like the Christians for National Liberation (CNL), the Kilusáng Kristiyáno ng Kabatáang Pilipíno (KKKP), the Student Christian Movement of the Philippines (SCMP), and many more. Renowned national democratic figures like Mr. Luis Jalandoni were formerly clergymen, and you yourself were once a sakristán. This begs the question: is Marxism incompatible with or antagonistic to faith and spirituality? If not, then what, in your mind, is its role in the Revolution?
JMS: Indeed, Christianity was brought to the Philippines by Spanish colonialism and played a reactionary role in the colonial subjugation of the people. And I also agree with you that eventually Filipino Christian personalities, organizations and movements would arise to stand and fight for national independence and democracy in concert with the Philippine revolution and the rest of the Filipino people.
You have mentioned a number of Christian organizations which are anti-imperialist and progressive and a number of personalities who found their way from Christianity to the national democratic movement. In the realm of philosophy or theology, the atheism of Marxism and the faith and spirituality in Christianity are irreconcilable.
But it is a fundamental human and democratic right to have freedom of thought and belief. On this ground, it is possible for believers and nonbelievers to dialogue and achieve cooperation in order to solve the mundane social, economic, political and cultural problems. Christians have the right to believe in God but they can also love their Marxist brethren and neighbors. Christians and Marxists can agree on loving and serving the people of whatever creed.
5. A common trend that has appeared in the ranks of the Pilipíno diaspora is their unfortunate tendency towards reaction and anti-communism. Indeed, many overseas Pilipíno workers (OPWs) have swiftly become the staunchest supporters of that fascist dog Duterte, and the régime has taken advantage of their reactionary orientation to organise death squads in Europe hell-bent on the assassination of many key national democrats, such as yourself. Just recently, that butcher Parlade was sighted in Milan with a handful of OPWs, planning to form even more death squads. In the past, the pensionados—Pilipíno scholars sent to the US for study—were the foremost agents of Amerikan imperialism in the Philippines. Among them was Gen. Carlos P. Romulo, close accomplice of that imperialist chieftain MacArthur, and puppet of Magsaysay and his American overlords during the Cold War and ensuing Red Scare. In light of this, what do you think is the diaspora’s role in our struggle for national liberation?
JMS: The national democratic movement has done excellent work in arousing, organizing and mobilizing the overseas Filipinos in so many countries. I do not concede that our compatriots abroad are predominantly reactionary and anti-communist and are predisposed to being rabid supporters of the Duterte regime and joiners of death squads organized by Duterte agents. The actual and potential Duterte loyalists and Duterte death squads are so few. They are well-covered and countered by the widespread militant organizations of the national democratic movement abroad as well as by foreign organizations in solidarity with them.
The overwhelming majority of Filipino compatriots abroad come from the classes of workers, peasants and the urban petty bourgeoisie. They have gone abroad to be employed and are dissatisfied with the social, economic and political conditions in the Philippines. Many of them come from areas in the Philippines where the revolutionary movement has struck deep roots and has wide influence among the people. They are preoccupied with earning a living for themselves and their families in the Philippines and yet many find time to join the organizations of the national democratic movement. They are entirely different from the pro-imperialist types of characters like Carlos P. Romulo, Magsaysay, Marcos, Duterte and other few rabid anticommunist Filipinos abroad who belong to the upper classes.
6. So far, the self-labelled "opposition" to Duterte and his gang of imperialist running dogs in Malakanyang have revealed themselves to be extremely weak, corrupt, and worst of all, alienated from the great mass of Pilipínos—the 1-Sambayan grouping is simply another coalition of bourgeois liberals and conservatives reeking of elitism, Moreno is an anti-poor bureaucrat-capitalist and defender of the Marcoses, Ong is a quack bourgeois doctor who offers only the most unsavory medical advice and political leanings, Trillanes hails from the reactionary military and has famously made fallacious and slanderous claims against the Makabayan bloc and continues to stand in the way of a truly-unified opposition, and Robredo still hasn’t announced a complete program for her presidency (and the few morsels of information we have regarding her plans don’t reflect well on her self-proclaimed "progressive" orientation: her schemes include the anti-people liberalisation of agriculture, the failed "localised peace talks", and so on). Only the unionist and rejectionist-revisionist Ka Leody and his partner the crypto- Trotskyite Walden Bello show any promise of genuine progressive reforms, fully supporting labour-leader Ka Bong Labog and human rights lawyer Neri Colmenares despite the Rejectionist-Reaffirmist schism. Given the admittedly bleak state of affairs, what are your thoughts on the up-coming 2022 elections?
JMS: You are not alone in having a bleak view of the supposed opposing sides of the 2022 elections. The current electoral process in the Philippines is still dominated by the exploitative ruling system and is directly controlled by the tyrannical Duterte regime which is out to rig the vote count in its favor. From a revolutionary viewpoint, I do not expect any big change in Philippine society as a result of the 2022 elections.
This is a process controlled by the traitorous, tyrannical, mass murdering and plundering Duterte regime. Duterte controls the Comelec and the vote count. I do not think that he will pass the chance to rig the elections, especially because he is terribly afraid of being tried for crimes against humanity before the International Criminal Court and for a series of plunder and murder cases before Philippine courts. It is most unlikely that he will allow a truly anti-Duterte presidential candidate to win and hold him accountable for his crimes.
Even then legal patriotic and democratic forces like the Makabayan Bloc can participate in the 2022 elections to try to have their candidates win, gather evidence of the electoral fraud that Duterte plans to inflict on the electorate and join other forces and the people in carrying out gigantic mass actions similar to those that arose against Marcos and overthrew him after he cheated in the 1986 snap presidential elections. I presume that if Duterte cheats in the 2022 elections he will be further widening the ground not only for widespread and huge mass protests but also for the intensification of the people’s war on a nationwide scale. He has already created the favorable conditions for armed revolution because of his colossal crimes and his aggravation of the crisis of the ruling system.
7. With the restoration of capitalism in China by Deng Xiaoping and other capitalist roaders, there has been a veritable surge of imperialism the World over. Some of the worst imperialist ventures of the Beijing revisionists include the Sino-Vietnamese War of 1979, the violation of Pilipíno sovereignty over the West Philippine Sea (which continues to this day), their funding of the reactionary and atrocious Sri Lankan government during the Civil War, and so on. What do you have to say about China’s imperialism in Afrika, South and Southeast Asia, and elsewhere — its inner workings, motivations, &c.?
JMS: Deng Xiaoping’s "socialism with Chinese characteristics" is national socialism of the Hitler type, as well proven by consequent fascist crimes against the Chinese working people and China’s acts of imperialist aggression and debt enslavement of other countries. To overthrow the Chinese proletariat in October 1976, the Deng-Hua combine removed from the Chinese Communist Party millions of genuine communists who supported the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution.
Then, Deng proceeded to carry out capitalist reforms and open up to the US and world capitalist system. In the process, the Chinese monopoly bourgeoisie grew in power and wealth in the state and private sectors. China is now ruled by billionaires who control the pseudo-communist party, the state, the economy and other sectors of society.
After four decades of close US-Chinese collaboration in carrying out the neoliberal policy of imperialist globalization, the US has realized that China has become its chief economic competitor and arch political rival in the world. It has therefore decided to withdraw the major concessions that it has given to China. These include the huge export incomes of China from the US market and technology transfer to China.
As a result of the US decoupling from China, the latter is going into a crisis. This is resulting in unprecedented bitter struggles between the monopoly bourgeoisie and the proletariat within. We can expect the ruling Chinese monopoly bourgeoisie, the pseudo-socialist state and the pseudo-communist party to become more fascist inside China and more aggressive outside its borders, especially in the South China Sea, in South Asia in which the US is using India as counter to China and in Africa where China will become more demanding from countries heavily indebted to it.
8. Do you have any advice for young activists, organisers, and revolutionaries looking to resist being worn down by the depredations and daily drudgery of the capitalist order? In other words, how can a young tibák avoid being grounded by or being assimilated into the monotony of the system?
JMS: The young activists, organizers and revolutionaries should rise up to the challenges and fight against the depredations of imperialism and all reaction. They should keep on raising the level of their revolutionary work in the spheres of ideology, politics and organization and keep on accumulating greater achievements.
There can be nothing more exciting and effective than hard work and successes which can be counted in terms of growing numbers of cadres and activists who learn Marxism-Leninism-Maoism, active members of various types of mass organizations and the participants in huge mass mobilizations on crucial issues.
9. What do you think are the repercussions of the existence of a predominantly white labour aristocracy in revolutionary movements in the imperial core?
JMS: I do not think that the white labor aristocracy is in the revolutionary movements in the imperialist countries. It is the monopoly bourgeoisie that cultivates a white labor aristocracy as an assistant and supervisory force in the process of exploiting and oppressing the overwhelming majority of workers who receive bare subsistence wages.
It is not true that the entire working class in the imperialist countries has become a labor aristocracy in harmony with the monopoly bourgeoisie. Neoliberalism and the irrepressible crisis of overproduction have ravaged the wage and living conditions of the working class. What is needed is a competent revolutionary party of the proletariat which can take advantage of the now rapidly worsening crisis of monopoly capitalism in the imperialist countries.
10. Do you think that the national liberation of particular oppressed peoples such as New Afrikans, Chicanos, and the myriad of Native American nationalities in the US is justified? This, of course, includes our very own Moro, Igorot, Aeta, &c. brothers, who have been victims of Christian and Malay chauvinism, settlerism, and imperialism for centuries.
JMS: The liberation of all the oppressed people that you have mentioned is justified. A communist party is incompetent when it fails to integrate the various types of oppressed classes and masses in the revolutionary program and mobilize them for revolutionary struggle. The establishment of guerrilla fronts among the oppressed masses of the indigenous people in the hinterlands of the Philippines is a major source of strength for the entire people’s democratic revolution.
11. What do you think of the people’s wars currently active in India, Turkey, Bangladesh, and elsewhere?
JMS: I salute the parties, people’s armies and the masses carrying out the people’s war in India, Nepal, Manipur, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Kurdistan, Turkey, Palestine, Polisario, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Colombia, Peru and elsewhere. They assure the continuity of the epochal struggle between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie, the anti-imperialist and democratic mass struggles and the world proletarian-socialist revolution.
12. What would you say is your favourite piece of literature, be it a novel, poem, short story, or anything else?
JMS: I am a long-time teacher and student of comparative literature. What I favor is the kind of literature that gives me understanding of the character of a certain society, arouses the revolutionary spirit and shows the way of revolutionary advance. It would be too narrowing for me to choose any favorite piece of literature, be it a novel, poem, short story, or anything else.
13. What about film? Do you have any particular likings in cinema?
JMS: My answer to this question is basically the same as my answer to your previous question.
14. Do you have a favorite album or song?
JMS: I have favorite revolutionary songs from a number of countries. I have sung some of them and put them in a number of albums which you may listen to through my YouTube channel.
15. Are there any dishes or foodstuffs you would say are the best?
JMS: I love to eat the favorite dishes of México, Pampanga which my mother used to cook.
16. As a revolutionary, what would you say are your biggest mistakes?
JMS: Being captured on November 10, 1977 is one of them. I paid for the mistake with maximum security detention for nearly nine years. Other mistakes of mine are relatively minor, subject to timely corrections to avoid any serious damage. In a highly collective and disciplined party, an achievement or error is rarely monopolized by a single cadre but is often shared within a leading organ or unit.
When you engage in collective decision-making and in writing drafts of position papers, you must be ready to have any error by you criticized and corrected by others as well as to make your own criticisms and corrections to make the correct decisions, usually as the best possible decisions and position papers.
17. Is there anything you have always wanted to learn or master but simply never had the time to attend to?
JMS: One of them is learning and memorizing the basic 2,400 characters of Chinese.
18. At the age of 82, you are still quite healthy, with a sharp mind and a robust constitution. Do you have any regular routines or diets that help you stay in good shape?
JMS: Walking around and jogging in place between attending meetings, sitting for hours before the computer, and singing karaoke with comrades and friends. I used to play basketball up to the age of 53. My wife takes good care of my food and often reminds me to do exercises.
19. The death of Abimael Guzman, or Presidente Gonzalo, is a great tragedy to all genuine communists the world over. Has his passing awakened any fears of death in you?
JMS: The death of Gonzalo does not awaken fear of death in me. Many Filipino comrades closer to me have been martyred but have not adversely affected my fighting spirit. I was not afraid of death even in the years when I was vulnerable from 1968 to 1977.
There were instances when I was "in the bag" at an enemy checkpoint or when I witnessed an enemy force raiding a barrio where I was or when firefights occurred close to my forest camp. Nowadays, I consider the process of aging and having physical frailties and illnesses as a process of persuading me that I cannot physically live forever.
20. Would you say that you are a revolutionary optimist?
JMS: Yes. Even after I die, I am convinced that my revolutionary successors and the people will continue the revolution. My books are my legacy to help ensure that my successors know at least the background of their work. I have directed the publication of the Sison Reader Series under various useful general topics, in addition to the books I previously published.
I thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, and wish you ten thousand years of health, longevity, and security. May the luminous rays of communism come to encompass all eight corners of Creation and unifty it under one bright heaven.